Hello all!

I've posted some of this information on another forum, but this board seems to be geared more towards the DTG industry, so I figured I would post it here as well.


WARNING: I'm sure that any experimentation along these lines would probably void your epson printer warranty.

I doubt any hack-a-day hardware hack site style instructions exist to convert a standard off-the-shelf inkjet printer into a DTG printer... yet.

But I've read that a couple of the ($10k+) entry level DTG printers out there are possibly based on EPSON guts (Epson 2200 I've heard).... so I would think that a modification of this nature would be possible for those who are hardware savvy.


For those of you have used these DTG printers suspected to be based on Epson 2200's... do they show up as a Epson 2200?.... do they have any special drivers? Or are they using the original Epson 2200 drivers?

Would original Epson 2200 UltraChrome (pigment) ink be sufficient to print DTG? Or would a special blend be required?


Another thing I wonder about is since this Epson 2200 uses 7 individual colored ink catridiges... I wonder if it would be possible to use one of these colors (like "light black") for a white pigment base. I'm sure something like that would require custom drivers to be written though.

I won't even think about white right now though. It would be awesome just to be able to convert a sub-$500 printer into a DTG capable unit for a little more money (I would guess between $500 & $1000) & some experimentation.


I think it would probably be mostly just about changing the mechanics of the paper feed mechanisim. You can probably use the existing paper feed sensors.... just hack them into your custom garment based conveyor mechansim. The conveyor would also have to be capable of moving at the same speed as the original paper feeder & be started/stopped by the Epson guts.

You would also need to setup a bulk CIS, and find a supplier for Ink and pre-treatment chemicals that would work for the job. This may require a lot of experimentation if ink from the usual aftermarket suppliers won't work. But they should, right?


I've got a friend who has made many bizarre hardware hacks & who is into electronics in general. I'll ask him about this and see what he says.


WARNING: I'm sure that any experimentation along these lines would probably void your epson printer warranty.

------------------


Since I've noticed things like this:
http://www.timep.hr/novosti.aspx?NovostID=55

(a T-shirt printer that seems to be based on an Epson 4800) and the rumor that there are others out there based on the Epson 2200...

it's got me to wonder if some of the larger DTG printers that print 2, 4, or more shirts simultaneously are just based on larger wide format "off-the-shelf" printers as well. I'm guessing they are.

That's not to say that there isn't a lot of R&D and custom mechanical and electronic engineering going into these units beyond the off the shelf printer, but it also gives hope to the hardware hacker who would like to save thousands of dollars.

Atari,

No secrets here, most of the direct to garment printers in the market are based on Epson print engines. I'm pretty certain that the folks at Mastermind and Belquette are not shaking in their boots right now as they have invested 1000's of engineering hours into modifying these printers to do what they do. The step that you seem to gloss over is the biggest issue in regards to printing directly onto garments. The feeding mechanism is the magic - along with the inks. Having been to the manufacturer of our machines (DTG Kiosk, Bullet and Xpress) I can tell you that they contain an equal amount of custom manufactured boards and standard Epson boards (and some of the chips on the Epson boards are re-written).

If this were doable in a garage - it would have been done long ago. Perhaps the fact that a $600 printer is turbo-modified and sold for $10k+ bothers you, does it bother you that a bakery takes $2-3 worth of flour, eggs and sugar and sells you a cake for $20-30?

Lastly - there are issues of ink supply (Epson cartridges usually hold about 18 ml of ink) and driver issues (it takes more than 1 channel of white and a very high end RIP to print white AND absolute precision registration for a second pass on top of the white ink).

The idea is novel - but in reality it is very unrealistic.

Happy Printing

Don
SWF East

Maybe you've heard of a little company called Apple Computer? Founded by 3 people in a garage. Literally.





I've noticed that the discouragement above is coming from someone who has a vested interest in NOT seeing a cheap homebrew DTG printer come to light.

But let me tell you, If I wanted a cake, and the only cakes you could get were $20-$30.... you better believe I would be baking my own for $2-$3. Impossible or too time consuming for some, but I've got the time and skills to bake a little if I have to.



If one thing has been proven over and over again, it's this.... if you DON'T want something like this to happen, DON'T tell the hardware hackers out there that it's impossible, or unrealistic. Because they'll see that as even more of a challenge.

Regarding the white.... there seems to be a few uneeded printer cartridges that could be replaced with white.

CMYK is what you need right?... The rest of the carts could be used for white I would think? (Easier said than done of course, like you said... the printer would need to know not to use those carts for the colors they were originally intended for).

But getting white to print would be a secondary goal. There would be plenty of obstacles to overcome just to be able to print in the original colors of the printer.




Anyway, obviously there would be a lot of mechanical and eletronic engineering involved. This isn't something you would sit down and hack together in an evening. But it's also just as obvious that it IS possible and it isn't realistic for a small determined group of people.


What may be unrealistic however is spending an extra $9,000-$14,000 above what someone with hardware hacking skills could do it for.

I'm *NOT* saying that anyone could go out, buy an off-the-shelf printer & turn it into a DTG printer. But I *AM* saying that some people most definitely could, and probably will.


But before you start talking about how unrealistic things are, you should check out the archives at http://www.HackADay.com just to see the kind of things that people will do in their spare time.


As far as the ink goes... same as above. If you couldn't figure out how to mix your own inks (an adventure on it's own I'm sure), then you could surely buy them either from someone who can, or from the manufacturers of one of the many epson based DTG providers out there.

Besides, there are always companies out there making "compatible" aftermarket consumables right? The more popular that any one (or all) of the Epson based DTG machines out there get, the more likely it is that you'll see more aftermarket consumable suppliers for them.

LMFAO!

You need to get your head out of the hacking sites for a while and do real research on what you are talking about.

Have you read about the print heads yet? They need to be different than off the shelf ones, how about moving the garment through the machine? How cheap can a person modify, oops i mean manufacture their own platen moving system? But most importantly is the software. Can the hardware hacker also right code for the rips? No, they will probably download from a warez site illegaly, which is why they are hackers.

DTG isnt perfect even now yet, and you think a cpl of back yard tweekers could just slap a DTG together just like that? for a 1000$ LMAO

Could you modify one of my automatic screen print presses to embroider for me, then I will respect what you are trying accomplish a little more.

Atari,

I'm not questioning whether it can be done - no doubt. Would it make sense to do it? Only you can determine what your time is worth. If you feel it is worth your time to hack hardware to do t-shirts - knock it out! When you see all that is involved with handling textiles to be imprinted - you will see why it has taken over 10 years since this concept was conceived until it was market ready.

Am I vested in this marketplace - damn straight! And I will be long after a "hack" tries to mess it up and leaves people hanging with a half baked knock-off and no support. Maybe some of your whackadoodle-nerd buddies could handle maintaining a Popular Science version of a dtg printer, but the average mom and pop who wants and needs ongoing support can't and won't. I get passionate because someone who has what appears to be virtually zero knowledge of the industry he wants to conquer from his garage is stirring a pot and will never take action on his words. If you can build a printer that you can sell competetively and make in the industry - do it. I'm sure you realize that the people who sell, support, package, build & ship the machine will also have to make a living (that means you gotta pay them). Maybe you could hack into a bank and pay your "employees" with stolen funds - or maybe pay them with "hacked" versions of Garth Brooks CD's or Doom games.

I note that you said that it would void the warranty - any body out there interested in buying a dtg printer without a warranty???

Hack on - oh saviour of the downtrodden garment decorators - hack on!

Happy Hacking

Don
SWF East

Then what is your argument again?

"Hardware-Hack" is exactly what it implies. It's a DIY, no commerical support having, project for people who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty & like to tinker with things. I provided you with a URL (http://www.HackADay.com) that has many examples of projects like these. Some of them are much more complex than this one.




It may have taken 10 years partially due to the donor-technology (the printer guts) not being up to par until recently. When printers like the Epson 2200 and 4800 were released that obviously opened a few doors and lit a few lightbulbs over peoples heads.

That is the case for many good hardware hacks.

And don't fool yourself... these Epson-based DTG printers are "hardware hacks" (by definition anyway). Some of them are VERY professional commerically supported & warrantied versions that are well worth the money to the people out there buying them.

Does it make sense for ME to do? for ME? Well.. I would like 5-10 machines. So that would be like $75,000-$150,000 if I bought commercially converted Epson based printers.

So yeah, I guess I would rather try to spend considerably less by using the skills of myself, my friends, and any other interested skilled parties on the internet to figure out how to make one for less than $1000 above the cost of the printer & any commercial software required.

This idea definitely isn't for everyone. It may not even be something that 1% of the people interested in DTG would want to attempt.










Don, you're not being "passionate" when you say things like "whackadoodle-nerd buddies", calling people "Hack", and the numerous other unprofessional things you've said - you're just being insecure and rude.

I'll personally make it a point to never spend a penny with your company.





Who said I wanted to SELL anything?

Maybe I want to start a DIY T-Shirt company like CP or Zazzle... if I can build 10 machines for the price of one, that would definitely help my production line.

Development of web-based applications and sites (Php/MySQL/Flash, etc) is more my area of expertise & creating a site that provides a service similar those those listed is something I've been thinking about for awhile.


So, if at all possible, I would plan to be able to create & service my own DTG printers for as low cost as possible.





Does ANYONE out their have a Epson-based DTG printer supported BY EPSON? I suppose the Epson-based DTG printers you carry still have their Epson warranty in tact?

Come on Don... I know you're smarter than that. You're just grasping straws & throwing stones here.

Obviously if someone were to want to gut a Epson & turn it into a commerically sold DTG printer (not me!) then they would create a NEW warranty for the NEW device themselves.

Besides that, to commercially sell a device derived from Epson technology like that you probably need to obtain permission and possibly special licensing from Epson that would be based on your finished product. Not 100% certain on that, but I don't care at this point either way since I have zero desire to manufacture a DTG printer for commercial sale.

Can we all relax a little?

If Atari has the time and knowledge to create his own DTG; I for one, am impressed.

Don, it seems to me you feel a little threatened here. Take a deep breath. The majority of us getting into DTG aren't going to even consider DIY, unless maybe they have a best friend who's a software/hardware weenie (said with great affection-no insult intended). I can make my own clothing... Do you think for one minute that fact threatens any of the designers or garment manufacturers out there?

Atari, hats off to you and more power to ya!

This playground is big enough for all of us... just quit throwing sand!

lisa

^^ I agree completely with this statement. Now to address another statement:



Not true. Only the Brother uses proprietary print heads out of the sub $30k printers. The rest use Epson print heads.

I had a feeling someone was pulling my leg on that one, but I wanted to do a little research before I said anything.

I've been searching for a the past 30 minutes or so for information about any kind of replacement print heads other than the original equipment.

So, since they use the same print heads...

This would mean they probably use the same pigment based type of compatible ink, right?

(I'm thinking this since the viscosity would need to be fairly similar to the original ink the heads were designed for?)

Impressed that is. I do not believe he is even remotely close to having the knowledge. I think his post is a little less than serious in his technical knowledge. I can tell you that at best he has put the cart before the horse on his belief that it is plausble. I too liked to watch Macgyver as a boy and thought I could make a paper-mache hot air ballon that would fly before nearly setting the house on fire. I think Atari is holding more hot air than that ballon ever did and neither will ever get off the ground! Challenge! I will buy you at set of inks if you ever make it happen, Oh yeah know rush this challenge doesn't expire until 2032. Good luck and happy printing.

It's funny how much trash people talk about people they know nothing about.


From the information I've gathered so far...

The best case scenario minimum modifications to an original EPSON to convert it into a non-white-printing DTG printer would be:

- The printer
- A CIS system
- A height-adjustable conveyor tray that could possibly use stock epson sensors and switches to activate the tray.

Quite possibly no further modifications would be needed (other than hacking at least the bottom of the case to bits and building your own enclosure of some sort).

You would also need the rest of the things that people with these Epson based printers have... compatible ink, pre-treatment spray (?), a platen & frames to put the shirt on, etc.


In terms of as-cheap-as-possible it-doesn't-have-to-be-pretty hardware hacks, you might be able to cannibalize a heavy duty file cabinet drawer for your moving tray. I think they have about 12.5" of space on the inside.
There would be the fun job of motorizing its movement under the printer guts, but that's not that big of a deal really.


Of course, it could be a lot more work than the minimum above....

It's basically like this, IF you could print directly to a white shirt using your epson and original or readily available aftermarket inks without further modification, IF you were somehow able to move the t-shirt under the print head (instead of a piece of paper), THEN the minimum modifications should work.

I think might try the concept on some cheap Epson C88's first.

Atari,

I don't have a vested interest in dtg printing as I don't own or sell them. Trust me when I say you are not the first one to think of this. You (or your friends) might posses the skills that are needed to do this. But, I do work with a lot of people that are an integral part of this new technology and are putting a lot of time / effort into this area. I have even spoke with Don as well and can understand why he is so passionate.

From a purely business / legal perspective, I think you might want to revisit your business plan. I look at everything based on reality and time / value of money. You have basically laid out the steps you need to build a dtg machine and the items that go with it. I think you might be under-estimating the amount of hours that goes into completing these steps and doing the appropriate testing. With only a handful of large ink manufacturers even willing to attempt the manufacturing of the inks (which are much different than the Epson inks and I am sure have their chemists under non-competes if they are any bit smart - Yes, Dupont is a very smart company), I think you are severely underestimating the amount of time this project will take. The only two companies that I know of that build the machine and worked to make their own inks are Brother and Kornit. Both of these companies have been at this for several years and made severe capital investments. You also have to address the potential legal issue of whether you can "hack" into Epson systems without a license to create your own equipment even if you are not going to resell. How can you expect Epson to allow you to do this and spread the word on hacking websites so that others would do the same and misuse Epson investment? I am an attorney and there is no way that I would allow any of my clients to let this happen.

So, add all of these factors up and put a dollar amount to them (i.e. hourly wage for your time, paying the expertise needed to do necessary work, materials to build the prototype and working machines, cost of doing the testing,...) and I think you will find that it far exceeds your estimates. In addition, the time it takes for you to do this versus the potential lose revenues that you could be earning if you start off with one machine on a lease is hard to justify from a business / financial perspective.

Don't take this post the wrong way. I encourage entrepreneurialism. I consider myself one. But, it needs to make business sense. This type of homemade work is usually done in a market where the product life cycle is matured or been around for a while. The dtg market is still in the infantile stages and growing a light speeds.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck and hope you do succeed.

Mark

Mark,

My post above regarding inks covers the 3 basic avenues for getting suitable inks....

1 - Make it yourself (highly unlikely, a huge project in itself)

2 - Buy it from one of the several DTG manufacturers that use Epson heads. (Very likely)

3 - Buy it from a 3rd party aftermarket manufacturer that makes inks compatiable with the DTG machines using the Epson printers heads.

(4?) - Buy it from Epson if their ink would be suitable for printing DTG.



There's really nothing more to say about inks.

That problem was never a problem... unless you want to play sir-mix-a-lot and try to figure out how to make it yourself.



From a legal standpoint? I guess being an attorney you would know if there were any concern for someone ripping up their printer for personal and educational use.

I find it very hard to believe that I'm not allowed to open something up and make it better & better suited for the purposes that I purchased it for.

If there were a legal issue with this, then the aftermarket CIS systems being sold out there would be illegal too? And sites like Ipodhacks.com and Hackaday.com would be getting sued left & right.... right?


And I'm not so sure it would require any hacks to the firmware it self.

That's not my area of knowlege, but I'm going to ask a friend about this whole subject in general.



But in terms of voiding my warranty? Well there's no doubt about that one



Anyway, I don't expect they would care much until they officially got into the DTG market themselves. More people buying their printers over another manufacturers? Yeah, I'm sure they would hate that

I've got some milk crates a calculator and a drill...... can you make me a CNC Machine while you're at it.

Almost anytime you purchase software in the retail market, you are purchasing a license and not the right to manipulate the software. Based on what you have told us about your background, I am sure you know the term "source code". These licenses are very detailed and limit you as to what you can do with it.

The actual hard / tangible items can be tweaked or manipulated, but you void what is called the Warranty of Merchantability - i.e. it will do the job that the product is being sold as based on a reasonable person's understanding and will not be harmful to the public unless there are warning labels. It is my understanding that the dtg manufacturers break this warranty when they convert the printer to a dtg. The warranty they talk about is one that they create to make the decorator feel more comfortable when buying their product. I could be wrong, but Don or someone else can confirm this.

So, what investment (i.e. amount of hours and $$$) have you estimated for this project? Just curious. I have been told by the dtg manufacturers the number of years they have into their systems (i.e. Brother's go back till 1996 if I remember correctly based on the article that Brian posted). You never know, they could be exaggerating.

Mark

P.S. I like your screen name. It reminds me of the old days with TVs without remotes. ASTEROIDS AND PONG RULED!!

You'll need a few more parts,
but
it's
possible


(No thanks to unimaginative people like you, BobbyT)

hahaha. I like this guy! ^^ Nice response.

Hey, I say if ya wanna give it a go - DO IT! You are out what? 2 or 3 grand if you screw up? If you succeed, you save Ten Thousand or so.

In California there are precidents set regarding EULAs.

But I really don't think anything out of the ordinary would be required.


You have to remember, there are several commercial products out there that seem to be based on Epson printers. How did these people get around this? Was there even anything to "get around" ??




I've said that from my first post. See the warning? It's no real shocker that if you open up your printer & your warranty will be null & void

I also addressed a comment made by Don about the warranty issue.

Basically, if I ever got this to work, I don't anticipate selling it, so there is no consumer warranty (or lack thereof) to think about.



[/quote]


Brothers R&D time is of no significance at this point. Kudos to them of course, from the reviews here, it sounds like they have a very good product. But they were creating their own product from scratch, as most huge multi-national companies do. That required the design & tooling of many parts, tons of code, tons of electronic enineering, etc.


This project uses an existing device and (at first glance) is pretty much about building a tray that will move on the printers command. I.E. the tray becomes the paper. That's it.

That's basically STEP 1 to be able to experiment further anyway.




Asteroids was good... but I liked moonpatrol the best

"Atari" also has meaning in Japanese.

Hmm.... I wonder if I could do some mock "direct to garment" tests by opening up a printer (and cutting out the back where need be) and taping a piece of garment to a sturdy piece of paper stock?


That might be be good for some initial ink tests before spending time playing with the paper feed sensors & motorizing a tray.


What do you think?

I'll be back later... I'm going to go pick up a couple printers to test with.